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Post by BTB07 on Jun 28, 2009 16:26:54 GMT -5
freak.
I am watching 'Baseball's Golden Age' on FSN. They just did a segment on 'Willie, Mickey, and the Duke'. No answer was given (it depends on your criteria I suppose), but was mentioned that the debate was so important was the key.
Just talked about the institution that was the Brooklyn Dodgers (and how the team fit the town, etc.), and the sad stories of the Dodgers leaving (thanks to Walter Malley). I saw a special on HBO about this a few years back and it was awesome.
Just talked about barnstorming that major leaguers did in small towns.
Guess I am just a bit nostalgic, and really like the history of the game. I cannot imagine what it would be like when the players talked to the fans, and things like the Knot Hole gang, and teams that stayed together actually existed....
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 28, 2009 16:29:17 GMT -5
How does NY lose the Giants and the Dodgers in one year? Three of the most famous franchises were once in NY.
A team that was that much like the community (the Bums) is one that I could not imagine moving.
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Post by MIZ-SIU on Jun 28, 2009 22:18:16 GMT -5
That is a great show BTB. I also love nostalgic baseball
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 28, 2009 22:55:01 GMT -5
Funny, BTB, I was just waxing nostalgic on the Mark Derosa thread.
HBO just showed the Brooklyn Dodgers special the other day. I DVR'd it but haven't watched it yet.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 28, 2009 22:59:59 GMT -5
Funny, BTB, I was just waxing nostalgic on the Mark Derosa thread. HBO just showed the Brooklyn Dodgers special the other day. I DVR'd it but haven't watched it yet. That Dodgers special is really good. It goes deeper into the idea of construction and other issues in Brooklyn, and they took the Bums out of their borough and the fact that the team so well represented the area is tougher to envision now. I just look at the grainy videos and listen to the old timers talk about the game, and want to discuss baseball that way (although not many want to seem to listen). One of my favorite baseball memories was at the All Star FanFest in Milwaukee in 2002 when I listened to Buck O'Neil talk about baseball for a half hour. I was convinced he could talk baseball for 10 years without stopping or repeating the same story.
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 28, 2009 23:00:44 GMT -5
freak. I am watching 'Baseball's Golden Age' on FSN. They just did a segment on 'Willie, Mickey, and the Duke'. No answer was given (it depends on your criteria I suppose), but was mentioned that the debate was so important was the key. Just talked about the institution that was the Brooklyn Dodgers (and how the team fit the town, etc.), and the sad stories of the Dodgers leaving (thanks to Walter Malley). I saw a special on HBO about this a few years back and it was awesome. Just talked about barnstorming that major leaguers did in small towns. Guess I am just a bit nostalgic, and really like the history of the game. I cannot imagine what it would be like when the players talked to the fans, and things like the Knot Hole gang, and teams that stayed together actually existed.... Actually, I just looked. HBO's Documentary "Brooklyn Dodgers: The Ghosts of Flatbush" is on the HBO On Demand from now until July 20. Just thought I'd let anyone interested know.
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 28, 2009 23:12:47 GMT -5
I went to the Cardinals Winter Warm Up a couple back and there were a couple of my favorite players there. Minor guys, role players but they always played with fire. One was Scott Terry, an outfielder converted to pitcher. As I was getting his autograph, I mentioned that he was one of my favorite players during his time frame. He looked at me funny and said "I can't imagine why". I told him that it was because I am a fan of the game. Superstars are great and all but I have always loved watching players who played like this was their last game. He kinda choked up and shook my hand and said "Thanks" in a way that you could tell that he was moved. I then stood there, while he signed for other people and talked about baseball and the Cardinals and had one of the best times ever.
Now, Buck O'Neil, that would have been incredible!!!
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 28, 2009 23:17:53 GMT -5
Awesome story Sooner! That is the stuff I love as well.
I don't think that MLB players sit in the clubhouse and play cards and talk baseball like the old guys. Some of the stories in the show today were about guys talking on the trains they rode from city to city and talked baseball all through the night, not the same anymore...
Buck O'Neil was an outstanding human being. He did a hell of a lot to get the Negro League Museum off the ground in KC (where he played 1B for the Monarchs) and forgot more baseball in 30 seconds than most will EVER know. Luckily I made it to KC and got to see him at the Negro League Museum a few years back before he passed away. The worst part? They inducted a bunch of Negro League Players into Cooperstown and he gave the speech (even though he was NOT on the list of players). He died shortly after that, and had to be put into the hall posthumously.
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Post by MIZ-SIU on Jun 28, 2009 23:18:20 GMT -5
That is a great story SA even though I am not a huge Scott Terry fan. I have been to the WWU once and it was great but it sure is expensive
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 28, 2009 23:54:54 GMT -5
That is a great story SA even though I am not a huge Scott Terry fan. I have been to the WWU once and it was great but it sure is expensive Yeah, that was back in the day when I was active duty Air Force. I got in free and still spent an arm and a leg. So that was my one and only time to the WWU. Terry wasn't a great pitcher but I just like his enthusiasm. I also got to spend a little time with Danny Cox several years back. At the time (don't know about now) he owned a farm near my dad's and was a regular at the hardware store my step mother ran. I just happened to be in when Danny walked in. Step mom introduced us and he was a great guy. Willing to talk baseball for hours. BTB, I know what you mean about the baseball talk. It may just be me longing for the "good old days" but it seems like now, it's just a job. Back in the glory days, it was THE job. Even though the players were treated like crap and paid very little, the guys who got to do it knew that they were the envy of every grown American male and the idol of thousand of young American males. Even the lowliest utility guy was proud to be out there. Now, kids ask for autographs, knowing what it's worth on Ebay. Players seem detached. My youngest son was born at 5:30 pm. The Cardinals game came on at 7. Jason Simontacchi was pitching and Joshua and I sat and watched the first couple of innings together when he was an hour and a half old. I ran into Simontacchi when he was doing a minor league stint with the Memphis Redbirds at a game here in OKC. My son was getting his autograph on a ball and I told Simo the story (my son was three or four at the time.) I could tell the kid could not have cared less. Contrast that with Scott Terry...I just don't think players understand the fans anymore. Whoa. Start off talking about players understanding the game like they used to and the bitter old fan comes out. Sorry about guys.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 29, 2009 0:03:51 GMT -5
I agree with what you say about the baseball talk, and the connection to the fans. The guys make so much money now, that they cannot help but be disconnected. I mean A-Rod makes more in an inning than a lot of people make in an entire year. How can you relate to that. Some guys still try, but the connection is much more difficult than when the Dodgers players all lived in Brooklyn and some even had offseason jobs they worked in Brooklyn. Players today don't seem to love the game as the guys I see in those old grainy videos. Today one person said that Willie Mays knew the inning, the batter, what he did the last time, the location and pitch that was being thrown, and how the guy was hitting at the time, the runner on base and their speed, etc.. All that information went into him being a great defensive CF along with his great athletic ability. Today it seems like the guys make mistakes on the number of outs in the inning when they are in the field. I am young, but love the old things about baseball. I coach a travel baseball team, and other teams cannot believe how often we bunt, even with our 3 hitter who had hit a HR the time before. Everyone has to bunt when the situation calls, and the old style of game is more preferable to me anyways. I know however, that I am a rarity in my generation...a shame in my opinion (now I sound like a grump old man).
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Post by MIZ-SIU on Jun 29, 2009 0:05:59 GMT -5
I think it was Jeff Kent that said he only played baseball for the paycheck. That disgusted me
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 29, 2009 6:34:29 GMT -5
I am young, but love the old things about baseball. I coach a travel baseball team, and other teams cannot believe how often we bunt, even with our 3 hitter who had hit a HR the time before. Everyone has to bunt when the situation calls, and the old style of game is more preferable to me anyways. I know however, that I am a rarity in my generation...a shame in my opinion (now I sound like a grump old man). First of all, I'm a huge fan of Whitey ball, small ball, whatever you want to call it. Old fashioned baseball. Where a home run was an occasion, not a strategy (Thanks Earl Weaver...doofus!) I think everyone needs to know how to bunt. Everyone needs to know how to take a pitch. All the good stuff...so congratulations for teaching you kids the right way to play baseball!!! I've heard Bob Gibson talk about the game and he was a giant computer. He could tell you the count, how many runners...well, everything about at bats that happened 40 years ago. It all went into his computer of a brain while he was pitching, all of it factored into what pitch came next.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 29, 2009 16:29:43 GMT -5
Small ball is very important in my opinion, but I see it being used less and less. The sac bunt is something that everyday players no longer do (except very few national league hitters).
The old guys cared about the game more, and knew more about the game in my opinion. Guys like Tony Gwynn and Greg Maddux are a dying breed, and that doesn't make me too happy...
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Post by Bradimous1 on Jun 29, 2009 17:08:48 GMT -5
Small ball is very important in my opinion, but I see it being used less and less. The sac bunt is something that everyday players no longer do (except very few national league hitters). I disagree with you on this one... I think now that you don't see players hitting 73 homeruns a season on an average season (exaggeration), managers are using small ball more and more... teams are coveting speed... look at the Red Sox... Jacoby Ellsbury was moved down in the lineup, so that Dustin Pedroia would be hitting lead off... this makes the Red Sox lineup significantly more "small ballish" (wow, that sounds bad). Pedroia now is asked to slap the ball all over the park instead of hitting for power... they are also asking him to steal bases, hit and runs with JD Drew... also, you have Jacoby Ellsbury getting on first base and told not to stop running until he hits home plate (another exaggeration). But I truly think that the sport is evolving back into an art by the managers and players becoming more and more creative on how they get runners in scoring position without the use of roids. jmo
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Post by tophb21 on Jun 29, 2009 20:25:22 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to HBO's special on Ted Williams that comes in a couple of weeks.
My dad grew up a Dodgers fan b/c he was a left handed pitcher that loved Koufax and he grew in Brooklyn, PA and they were Brooklyn, NY. His stories of growing up and listening to the games on the radio are pretty cool.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 29, 2009 21:41:19 GMT -5
Brad- Certain cases it still exists, but I get bored watching AL Baseball at times because it is so station to station (the Rays showed different last year as well). But usually teams in the AL are not willing to sacrifice an out in order to move a runner up, because they just wait for the big guys to go yard. I hope you are right, and that it is changing, not convinced myself. I'm looking forward to HBO's special on Ted Williams that comes in a couple of weeks. My dad grew up a Dodgers fan b/c he was a left handed pitcher that loved Koufax and he grew in Brooklyn, PA and they were Brooklyn, NY. His stories of growing up and listening to the games on the radio are pretty cool. That is awesome. I didn't know they were coming out with one about Ted Williams. That is one that I HAVE to watch. Great stories about that guy for sure, some of the stories of him flying in the war are incredibly interesting as well (oh what could have been...). Koufax is another guy you had to just wonder about. He was as good as any pitcher of all-time for about a 6 year stretch. If he wouldn't have gotten hurt who knows what he could have done, and the conversation might be about the second best pitcher of all-time with Koufax topping everyones list (boy got carried away again there...).
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Post by badgersballers on Jun 29, 2009 22:18:53 GMT -5
The funny thing is that Koufax always gave away which pitch he was about to pitch in his windup, but his stuff was so good they still couldn't hit it.
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 29, 2009 23:09:00 GMT -5
Small ball is very important in my opinion, but I see it being used less and less. The sac bunt is something that everyday players no longer do (except very few national league hitters). I disagree with you on this one... I think now that you don't see players hitting 73 homeruns a season on an average season (exaggeration), managers are using small ball more and more... teams are coveting speed... look at the Red Sox... Jacoby Ellsbury was moved down in the lineup, so that Dustin Pedroia would be hitting lead off... this makes the Red Sox lineup significantly more "small ballish" (wow, that sounds bad). Pedroia now is asked to slap the ball all over the park instead of hitting for power... they are also asking him to steal bases, hit and runs with JD Drew... also, you have Jacoby Ellsbury getting on first base and told not to stop running until he hits home plate (another exaggeration). But I truly think that the sport is evolving back into an art by the managers and players becoming more and more creative on how they get runners in scoring position without the use of roids. jmo Ahhh good old Nancy Drew. He was so injury plagued with the Cardinals, I was happy to see him go. Then, on a business trip to Boston, I get tickets to see the Sox and the Tigers. My seats are out in the RF bleachers. JD had been doing well and what happens? Second inning he slides while making a catch and pulls a ribcage muscle or some such. Same old Nancy!! Anyway, back to small ball. The talk in the Big XII was about Texas' success this season playing the small ball game. I think with players under so much scrutiny for PEDs, small ball may be coming back. I know the Mets, with their HUGE new stadium, should be thinking about it!
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Post by tophb21 on Jun 30, 2009 8:45:19 GMT -5
Brad- Certain cases it still exists, but I get bored watching AL Baseball at times because it is so station to station (the Rays showed different last year as well). But usually teams in the AL are not willing to sacrifice an out in order to move a runner up, because they just wait for the big guys to go yard. I hope you are right, and that it is changing, not convinced myself. I'm looking forward to HBO's special on Ted Williams that comes in a couple of weeks. My dad grew up a Dodgers fan b/c he was a left handed pitcher that loved Koufax and he grew in Brooklyn, PA and they were Brooklyn, NY. His stories of growing up and listening to the games on the radio are pretty cool. That is awesome. I didn't know they were coming out with one about Ted Williams. That is one that I HAVE to watch. Great stories about that guy for sure, some of the stories of him flying in the war are incredibly interesting as well (oh what could have been...). Koufax is another guy you had to just wonder about. He was as good as any pitcher of all-time for about a 6 year stretch. If he wouldn't have gotten hurt who knows what he could have done, and the conversation might be about the second best pitcher of all-time with Koufax topping everyones list (boy got carried away again there...). If they had the surgeries of today back then, I wonder what Koufax would have ended up. He had absolutely filthy stuff in all of the classic games and highlights that I've seen. He came to the big leagues with control issues much like Randy Johnson. I think with the way they pitched backed then as far as schedules, that a healthy Koufax over 15 years could have easily gotten 300 wins. I believe the Williams documentary is coming around July 15th or there abouts.
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Post by Bradimous1 on Jun 30, 2009 10:36:12 GMT -5
Brad- Certain cases it still exists, but I get bored watching AL Baseball at times because it is so station to station (the Rays showed different last year as well). But usually teams in the AL are not willing to sacrifice an out in order to move a runner up, because they just wait for the big guys to go yard. I hope you are right, and that it is changing, not convinced myself. more and more teams are setting themselves up to play small ball... and more and more are being successful at it... the trend is changing and it will be so good for baseball!!!
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 30, 2009 12:33:35 GMT -5
Brad- Certain cases it still exists, but I get bored watching AL Baseball at times because it is so station to station (the Rays showed different last year as well). But usually teams in the AL are not willing to sacrifice an out in order to move a runner up, because they just wait for the big guys to go yard. I hope you are right, and that it is changing, not convinced myself. more and more teams are setting themselves up to play small ball... and more and more are being successful at it... the trend is changing and it will be so good for baseball!!! Earl Weaver did everything he could to ruin baseball. In his book, "Weaver on Strategy" he advocated nothing but long ball. books.google.com/books?id=KYk1T79Wo44C&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=Earl+Weaver+3+run+homer&source=bl&ots=CQUlPzo7Cz&sig=Q-OGkydW47KG7l1VRXkfjiWnQjM&hl=en&ei=XEpKSqebMZWIMZC7kLAC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2(I know this is a crazy long url but it is the second chapter in Weaver's book. The chapter is called offense and he goes into detail why the bunt should almost never, ever be used. Tool.) I loved the days of Whitey Herzog in huge old Busch. Slapping singles, stealing a billion bases, and winning games. I loved it.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 30, 2009 14:20:57 GMT -5
I sure as heck hope it is changing Brad, that would be good for the game in my opinion.
Sooner I didn't get to see the Cardinals that used that huge park to their advantage and swipped bases at an alarming rate. Something I would have liked to see personally. They took advantage of that astroturf didn't they?
Glad to know I am not the only nostalgic one. ;D
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 30, 2009 15:27:13 GMT -5
I sure as heck hope it is changing Brad, that would be good for the game in my opinion. Sooner I didn't get to see the Cardinals that used that huge park to their advantage and swipped bases at an alarming rate. Something I would have liked to see personally. They took advantage of that astroturf didn't they? Glad to know I am not the only nostalgic one. ;D Back in the 80's, while Earl Weaver and everyone else started falling in love with home runs, Whitey "The White Rat" Herzog built a Cardinals team that was pure speed. Vince Coleman, in 1985 (Rookie of the Year), 86 and 87 stole 326 bases! 110, 107, 109. Whitey once commented that he thought that the Cardinals, as a team, might break Maris' record of 61 home runs. The team usually did have one power guy who usually hit about 20 homers a year. 20! Now days, the utility infielder hits that many! (Ok, maybe not but...) Because the ball would take off on the turf and because straight away center was 415', he'd have people bunt for singles, hit and run, straight steal, dink and dunk singles every where and then use their wheels to make things happen. The speed also served them well on defense with guys like Ozzie Smith filling gaps and making plays just because they could get there faster than other people. It was a great time and I hope it is coming back.
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Post by tophb21 on Jun 30, 2009 16:37:54 GMT -5
I sure as heck hope it is changing Brad, that would be good for the game in my opinion. Sooner I didn't get to see the Cardinals that used that huge park to their advantage and swipped bases at an alarming rate. Something I would have liked to see personally. They took advantage of that astroturf didn't they? Glad to know I am not the only nostalgic one. ;D Back in the 80's, while Earl Weaver and everyone else started falling in love with home runs, Whitey "The White Rat" Herzog built a Cardinals team that was pure speed. Vince Coleman, in 1985 (Rookie of the Year), 86 and 87 stole 326 bases! 110, 107, 109. Whitey once commented that he thought that the Cardinals, as a team, might break Maris' record of 61 home runs. The team usually did have one power guy who usually hit about 20 homers a year. 20! Now days, the utility infielder hits that many! (Ok, maybe not but...) Because the ball would take off on the turf and because straight away center was 415', he'd have people bunt for singles, hit and run, straight steal, dink and dunk singles every where and then use their wheels to make things happen. The speed also served them well on defense with guys like Ozzie Smith filling gaps and making plays just because they could get there faster than other people. It was a great time and I hope it is coming back. Yep Jack Clark was bout the only source of power, but holy hell Coleman, Willie McGee, Ozzie Smith, Jose Oquendo, etc were fun as hell to watch!!
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 30, 2009 17:03:51 GMT -5
Back in the 80's, while Earl Weaver and everyone else started falling in love with home runs, Whitey "The White Rat" Herzog built a Cardinals team that was pure speed. Vince Coleman, in 1985 (Rookie of the Year), 86 and 87 stole 326 bases! 110, 107, 109. Whitey once commented that he thought that the Cardinals, as a team, might break Maris' record of 61 home runs. The team usually did have one power guy who usually hit about 20 homers a year. 20! Now days, the utility infielder hits that many! (Ok, maybe not but...) Because the ball would take off on the turf and because straight away center was 415', he'd have people bunt for singles, hit and run, straight steal, dink and dunk singles every where and then use their wheels to make things happen. The speed also served them well on defense with guys like Ozzie Smith filling gaps and making plays just because they could get there faster than other people. It was a great time and I hope it is coming back. Yep Jack Clark was bout the only source of power, but holy hell Coleman, Willie McGee, Ozzie Smith, Jose Oquendo, etc were fun as hell to watch!! Jose Oquendo, the ugliest man in baseball...I remember the crazy game against the Braves where, in the 16th inning, St. Louis was out of pitchers. Oquendo came in and shut the Braves out for three innings! He gave up two in the fourth for the loss, but hey, three innings of shut out ball by the utility guy!!! I remember games where he'd play 6 or 7 spots in one game. What a guy. Pretty nice, too. I have his autograph on a Cardinals stuffed bear from back when he was still playing.
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Post by SoonerAlum on Jun 30, 2009 17:06:12 GMT -5
Back in the 80's, while Earl Weaver and everyone else started falling in love with home runs, Whitey "The White Rat" Herzog built a Cardinals team that was pure speed. Vince Coleman, in 1985 (Rookie of the Year), 86 and 87 stole 326 bases! 110, 107, 109. Whitey once commented that he thought that the Cardinals, as a team, might break Maris' record of 61 home runs. The team usually did have one power guy who usually hit about 20 homers a year. 20! Now days, the utility infielder hits that many! (Ok, maybe not but...) Because the ball would take off on the turf and because straight away center was 415', he'd have people bunt for singles, hit and run, straight steal, dink and dunk singles every where and then use their wheels to make things happen. The speed also served them well on defense with guys like Ozzie Smith filling gaps and making plays just because they could get there faster than other people. It was a great time and I hope it is coming back. Yep Jack Clark was bout the only source of power, but holy hell Coleman, Willie McGee, Ozzie Smith, Jose Oquendo, etc were fun as hell to watch!! Yeah, when your power guys are Jack Clark and Tom Brunansky, you have a definite lack of power guys.
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Post by BTB07 on Jul 1, 2009 9:53:53 GMT -5
Jose Ocquendo still has a good baseball head (last I saw he was coaching third for the Cardinals).
The first Cardinals game I went to in St. Louis (it had to be 2001 or so) I saw the ugliest player in the history of the bigs. Willie McGhee. He was beyond grotesque, and nearly made me throw up the 4 dollar hot dog I just bought.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2009 11:11:47 GMT -5
Earl Weaver was ahead of his time... he valued OPS (On base plus Slugging) before it even existed... After reading "Moneyball", I found myself nodding with everything in that book... On base percentage and slugging percentage are much more important in scoring as many runs as possible than the sacrifice bunt and stolen bases.... just my opinion... but Earl Weaver had a very useful philosophy to baseball...
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Post by MIZ-SIU on Jul 1, 2009 12:46:43 GMT -5
Oquendo will become the manager when LaRussa retires
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