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Post by whamil77 on Jun 13, 2009 22:04:03 GMT -5
.. and usually I get it.
Bear with me, here. When I came out of High School in 1974, I could have easily gotten into either Auburn or Alabama with my very average grades. I eventually graduated from Auburn with more average grades, but have done pretty well professionally.
Now I have two nephews. One was a superior student with very high grades, but got into Auburn by the skin of his teeth. His younger brother, whose grades were more like mine, had absolutely no chance of getting into Auburn until he went to a small school for a couple of years and got his grades up.
A Captain who works for me sent his two kids to Michigan State. I noticed, one day, that he was carrying a Michigan bag. I asked him how his kids got to MSU when their dad was a Wolverine. He surprised me with the answer that his children had only above average grades and had no shot at getting into UM.
It appears to me that it is much more difficult to get into the larger schools now than it was 30 or so years ago, and it doesn't appear to be particularly regional. From this I would naturally assume that kids are much better students now.
Here is my first question. If students are so much better now, why are we so far behind the rest of the world in education? Most of the Asian countries don't consider us to be competition in any technical field. We are largely ignored as being irrelevant. We are at an all-time low in every measurable facet of learning when compared to the rest of the world.
In my view, there are several possible answers. One could be that the High Schools have become more about crowd control and less about education such that any effort at all results in inflated grades. In other words, the grading standard is much easier than in the past resulting in higher grades for anyone that makes any effort at all. A 3.8 GPA now might be at the same level as a 3.2 was thirty years ago.
How about some of you guys and gals that are closer to the college environment give me your opinions. After all, it's been 30 years since I was there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2009 22:10:11 GMT -5
A lot of it is about ACT and SAT scores now as well. I had scholarships coming out of my ass just based off of the 31 I made on the ACT...
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 13, 2009 22:16:52 GMT -5
An interesting question.
A lot of grades that are given in High School are largely superficial. I didn't try a damn bit in High School and got like a 4.0 at a good High School. A lot of the grades are based on memorization instead of understanding.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 13, 2009 22:19:12 GMT -5
An interesting question. A lot of grades that are given in High School are largely superficial. I didn't try a damn bit in High School and got like a 4.0 at a good High School. A lot of the grades are based on memorization instead of understanding. I graduated high school in '75, and back then, we had to EARN our grades. No curves, learn it or lose it.
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Post by badgersballers on Jun 13, 2009 22:20:04 GMT -5
I'm guessing that there are a lot more kids in the United States going to college now, not to mention the fact that I'm guessing that more kids from other countries wanting to go to colleges in the US so with more competition it's much more difficult.
And I agree with BTB on high school.
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 13, 2009 22:23:34 GMT -5
I thought High School was a joke personally. It was way too easy. When I got to college I realized I better work a little bit harder, or I would not achieve the same grades. The grades I have gotten in college are very good, and I feel like I have earned them for the most part.
The problem is that a lot of folks who wouldn't have gone to college before (either a trade school, or straight to work) are now trying to go to school. Most of them last a semester or two, then drop out. While others keep going and getting further into debt for an education they can't really utilize once they graduate.
By that is just me rambling...
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csd10
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Post by csd10 on Jun 13, 2009 22:50:59 GMT -5
This is a great topic to bring up.
I'm 24 and graduated college two years ago with a 3.75 GPA. My experience in searching for a college didn't hinge on grades, but tuition. I graduated high school with about a 3.3 GPA and an SAT score of 1280. I didn't want to be a townie, which ruled out WVU, even though I would have been able to attend that school for free. I was accepted to PSU, Louisville, Maryland and Tennessee. The out-of-state tuition at those other schools was so ridiculous that I went with IUP. The education I got at an underrated state school was tremendous, and I don't know where I'm going with this because I'm still celebrating the Pens win. Hopefully I can follow up Monday with something to contribute to this convo...sorry for wasting your time.
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Post by NCBulldawg on Jun 13, 2009 23:04:45 GMT -5
I hear that about earning your grades. When I took Geometry back in what, 11th grade(?) I got a D. The only D I ever got. Always was an A/B student in HS, but our teacher would count the whole answer wrong even if you got to the right answer mathematically, in spite of forgetting the reason behind it. So, if you had a test with 4 proofs, and you missed one stupid ass reason in a 10 step proof, FAIL. Now you are at a 75%, C, that is, if you didn't forget any other reasons.
Needless to say, I retook the class and got an A. Couldn't have that damn D on there, know what I mean?
Wow.... Saturday night and I am at home bitching about Geometry from 11th grade, or whenever.
....sigh.... my life is over.
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Post by LaylaGator on Jun 14, 2009 7:12:43 GMT -5
In response to the original post, the same phenomenon has occurred at UF. My sister and I always say that we're happy we got in during the 90s, cuz I don't know that we would get in today. The student population keeps growing, and yet the standard keeps rising. It's just a matter of increased demand.
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Post by 96Ag on Jun 14, 2009 8:07:53 GMT -5
I know that it has always been in Texas if you graduated in the top 10% of your class, you automatically were accepted into the State Schools.....now, the larger schools like A&M and Texas have trouble accommodating all of the students that apply that graduated in the top 10%.....they just tried to pass legislation to exempt the University of Texas from the 10% rule.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2009 8:27:52 GMT -5
I agree with BTB 100%... Our high school was just show up and try just a little bit and you could get a 3.0 GPA... I know WVU is trying to get its student population up to 30,000 in the next few years.... but, I know they are rejecting more and more wannabe students... not sure how this happened either... but like klink said, the schools are basing so much scholly money and acceptance on the standardized test scores (not just the SAT and ACT, but also the West Test they do in WV)...
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Post by Bradimous1 on Jun 14, 2009 13:32:00 GMT -5
This is a great topic to bring up. I'm 24 and graduated college two years ago with a 3.75 GPA. My experience in searching for a college didn't hinge on grades, but tuition. I graduated high school with about a 3.3 GPA and an SAT score of 1280. I didn't want to be a townie, which ruled out WVU, even though I would have been able to attend that school for free. I was accepted to PSU, Louisville, Maryland and Tennessee. The out-of-state tuition at those other schools was so ridiculous that I went with IUP. The education I got at an underrated state school was tremendous, and I don't know where I'm going with this because I'm still celebrating the Pens win. Hopefully I can follow up Monday with something to contribute to this convo...sorry for wasting your time. this was a great post... thanks, I got a good laugh out of it. I spent many a drunken nights at IUP back in the day... really fun school to visit!
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Post by dpb13 on Jun 14, 2009 13:37:50 GMT -5
Also remember that GPA today is not GPA back then. With AP classes counting as an extra point GPA's appear to be higher than they are.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 14, 2009 14:26:51 GMT -5
Also remember that GPA today is not GPA back then. With AP classes counting as an extra point GPA's appear to be higher than they are. Did they have AP classes "back then"?
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Post by dpb13 on Jun 14, 2009 14:42:59 GMT -5
Also remember that GPA today is not GPA back then. With AP classes counting as an extra point GPA's appear to be higher than they are. Did they have AP classes "back then"? Not as common place as they are now.
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Post by whamil77 on Jun 14, 2009 17:24:27 GMT -5
Also remember that GPA today is not GPA back then. With AP classes counting as an extra point GPA's appear to be higher than they are. Did they have AP classes "back then"? We did not in my High School. But, that was 1972-1974 and it was in Alabama where the state slogan is "Thank God for Mississippi!"
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 15, 2009 10:41:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure what they are trying to teach in high school these days but it isn't working very well. A 3.7 gpa to day would compare to a 2.0 in the late 60's early 70's. I'm not saying this is true for all schools but true at more than this country can afford. How many times have you confused a clerk when you give them $20.23 for a $15.23 bill after the cash register says you get $4.77 in change.
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Post by Velocity on Jun 15, 2009 12:12:59 GMT -5
The school system in the USA today sucks because it is all geared toward testing, not truly LEARNING the material. These places are shuttling through kids that have no business advancing, and they won't hold a kid back for fear of a lawsuit. Thus, we get mildly educated morons getting high school diplomas when they don't know jack. Moreover, the kids that graduate with decent grades have to suffer because the education is being dumbed down so as to fit the lowest common denominator (i.e., the morons). It becomes a vicious cycle, and the lowest common denominator gets even lower. This results in more "morons" graduating, flooding society with people ill-equipped to handle the jobs so necessary in today's technologically-advanced world.
Unable to keep up, these "morons" invariably end up in law school. ;D (That part was a joke... sort of. Just look at some of the lawsuits these days.)
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Post by fiasco007 on Jun 16, 2009 2:59:36 GMT -5
I hate to really speculate, but I think/feel that the whole institution of education is declining in not only students, but teachers, faculty and our society as well. How many of you got paddled when you were a kid? I did, many of times. And it really didn't matter if I was in the right or the wrong, my parents always sided with the school. When I got home i was in trouble again.
It seems like alot of parents use the school as a baby sitter, and are really quick to attack the school for any issue their kids have. They dont value education, and dont enforce that in their kids. Education is enforced by Japanese parents, and if you mess up then you are a social outcast.
On the flip side, if you are a teacher, and your always considered in the wrong, have to put up with alot of these snotty kids with behavioral issues, Have the dangers of kids bringing weapons to school, the chance of being accused of some BS you didn't do and having your name ruined, and all this for 30K a year? Not to mention. If you are a highly educated professor in a math/science, and you have some doucher principal with half the degree and knowledge you have. Do you really want that idiot as a boss? especially when you could be working somewhere else making bank with other professionals with the same interests?
I think alot of good teachers are fed up, dont care or just say hell with it.
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Post by fiasco007 on Jun 16, 2009 3:21:45 GMT -5
I lived in Japan for several years. Most of the kids went to school 6 days a week, when they finished their school for the day, they often went to a 2ndary or specialty school for something else for several hours.
They all wore uniforms, which I would have hated. but that alone cuts out distractions and creats uniformity. There were no gang bangers at school with their pants sagging.
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 16, 2009 9:31:47 GMT -5
It seems like alot of parents use the school as a baby sitter, and are really quick to attack the school for any issue their kids have. They dont value education, and dont enforce that in their kids.Tater truck - this is the root of the problem. If the parents don't value an education how can we expect their kids to. I also hate what seems to be a dumbing down of curriculum at many or most schools.
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Post by athens on Jun 16, 2009 9:34:40 GMT -5
It seems like alot of parents use the school as a baby sitter, and are really quick to attack the school for any issue their kids have. They dont value education, and dont enforce that in their kids.Tater truck - this is the root of the problem. If the parents don't value an education how can we expect their kids to. I also hate what seems to be a dumbing down of curriculum at many or most schools. How about this??? www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/stories/2009/06/10/CRCT_cheating_schools_investigation.html
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Post by kaara on Jun 16, 2009 11:02:30 GMT -5
whanil, I know what you are saying. I got into the University of Wisconsin back in 1991. My grades in high school were decent (3.2 gpa), I was 3 sport athlete and I got a 27 on my ACT and that was my whole resume for admission into the UW. My sister-in=law is a 22 year old student at UW right now and from what I can gather I would likely not have gotten in to UW if I tried to apply today with the same resume that got me into the UW back in 1991. They have to write an essay, have atleast a 3.5 gpa with advanced classes, my ACT score would still hold up, but they also need other extracirriculars besides sports (unless they are good enough for an athletic scholarship) and yet like you, I managed to graduate from UW with average grades (C's get degrees ) and do quite well professionally as well. Some times I think alot of this stuff is B.S. about us "falling behind the rest of the world", please we're not necessarily ahead, but I don;t buy that we are behind either, I think we are just different.....
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Post by scuzz on Jun 16, 2009 11:14:08 GMT -5
I would say there are a couple factors.
1. There are more kids trying for relativly the same number of spots in the "major" universities. There are programs at even "average" schools that are very hard to get in to.
2. High schools teach to the tests. Kids learn to the state testing and don't learn beyond that. You don't learn history, you learn the history for the test.
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Post by raleighrebel on Jun 16, 2009 11:18:56 GMT -5
Klink = DTM
i only got a 30 on mine
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Post by raleighrebel on Jun 16, 2009 11:20:18 GMT -5
and the poster that mentioned inflated GPA's, you are correct. AP classes now where my wife teaches are with 6.0 if you get an A+ and then Honors are 5.0 and CP (college prep or just regular) are 4.0
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Post by BTB07 on Jun 16, 2009 11:47:44 GMT -5
and the poster that mentioned inflated GPA's, you are correct. AP classes now where my wife teaches are with 6.0 if you get an A+ and then Honors are 5.0 and CP (college prep or just regular) are 4.0 Also a good point. The kid who had the highest GPA at my high school was like 4.55 or something. Maybe the fact that so many other things in our country distract kids also hurts the intelligence when referencing 'non test' information.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2009 12:08:15 GMT -5
I always did good in HS.
My accumulative GPA in my Senior year was a 3.8. I scored a 30 on my ACT.
I received so many scholarship offers from many schools. Even from four big ten schools.
I would of went to Iowa but I didn't want to leave home and plus I would of been buried on there roster.
Well now im a starter at Alma and Im getting a good education so it was all worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2009 12:09:03 GMT -5
Plus its local so im not far from family.
It was a very good fit.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 16, 2009 12:33:36 GMT -5
There is a larger middle class in society and more people are being afforded the opportunity to go to college than there were 30 years ago and the public school system is being dumbed down.
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