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Post by LaylaGator on Jun 14, 2009 20:04:06 GMT -5
Just saw this article. Thought it might solicit some good comments from the folks on here... I cut and pasted the highlights of the article. The whole story can be read here: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526240,00.html So should turbans and beards be allowed in the military again? Or is strict uniformity essential for the troops?
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 20:16:38 GMT -5
Indeed, that is true. Time changes everything, and in these troubled times with the Arabic world, I see nothing wrong with allowing this man, and others like him, to serve our country. The best way for him to serve is with his beard and turban intact, thus proving to the Arabic world that, indeed, we are not the tyrrants that your extremists portray us as. What better way is there to reach out to these people, and show that we can all live in peace, together?
Okay. Now, bring on the criticism!!
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 14, 2009 20:23:01 GMT -5
Right off the bat there are several major issues. Not sure how well a Kevlar helmet would fit over a turbin. Women have hair restrictions that allow the Kevlar to fit.
But more importantly, beards and NBC Protective Masks do not mix. You cannot seal the mask.
There are a ton of other issues that come to mind, but I have actually seen Sihks in uniform, but not in a Theater of Operations. You must be able to wear the mask in a War Zone. And all Soldiers (and I would presume Marines as well) must be able to deploy to forward operational areas.
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BAmaMAn
Senator
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Post by BAmaMAn on Jun 14, 2009 20:22:26 GMT -5
Honest question. If this is allowed, how much easier would it be for someone (suicide bomber?) to infiltrate our fighting units, dressed as one of us?
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 14, 2009 20:25:31 GMT -5
BAmaMan,
I don't think that is an issue at all. Sikhs have more than their share of issue with radical Islam. And a radical can get a haircut and look Western if that was all there was to it. I don't see that as an issue.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 20:29:41 GMT -5
All understandable concerns, BD. Perhaps, the Sikh soldier would take those concerns to mind, and shave on his own. I see no problem with the helmet over the turban. Then again, we would not, necessarily, have to send them to the front lines. We could use them in the rear, in an ambassador type fashion, working with the native peoples. There are alternatives to everything, if one opens their mind.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 20:31:37 GMT -5
Indeed, that is true. Time changes everything, and in these troubled times with the Arabic world, I see nothing wrong with allowing this man, and others like him, to serve our country. The best way for him to serve is with his beard and turban intact, thus proving to the Arabic world that, indeed, we are not the tyrrants that your extremists portray us as. What better way is there to reach out to these people, and show that we can all live in peace, together? Okay. Now, bring on the criticism!!
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 20:35:01 GMT -5
Now this REALLY HAPPENED and I know the main player... A one time very good friend of mine and a prior enlisted and career Navy Security Officer, stationed overseas (Bahrain), requested in writing to convert to Muslim. Permission was granted and he was told no problem. The following day he brought in his paperwork to add his NEW Second Wife to his list of dependents.....
Mandatory retirement...
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 14, 2009 20:39:57 GMT -5
Tony,
You don't want to have an Army that has a category of people who simply do not deploy. There are people who manage to skate or have an issue, but the intent is that All Soldiers and All Marines are first and foremost infantry.
If we create a class of servicemembers who do not deploy, they also will then be at a serious disadvantage when it comes to promotion, as it should be.
And the Kevlar with a Turbin is not that easy to solve. When you have incoming, believe me you want that bugger on nice and tight.
Not saying that issues cannot be worked out, but these are basic operational considerations. Not to mention sanitation issues when there are no bathing or shower facilities available for weeks and weeks.
Special Ops guys frequently do operate in a much looser discipline arena but that is also part of their mission.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 20:40:23 GMT -5
Now this REALLY HAPPENED and I know the main player... A one time very good friend of mine and a prior enlisted and career Navy Security Officer, stationed overseas (Bahrain), requested in writing to convert to Muslim. Permission was granted and he was told no problem. The following day he brought in his paperwork to add his NEW Second Wife to his list of dependents..... Mandatory retirement... I see what you're saying here, PJ, and I don't like the idea of "converts", either. If you want to convert, wait till you're done in the military.
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poejoe8
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Post by poejoe8 on Jun 14, 2009 20:44:19 GMT -5
My problem, in addition to the ones BD mentioned, is that this is an all volunteer service. Anyone who signs up knows the Military standards beforehand.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 20:47:28 GMT -5
Tony, You don't want to have an Army that has a category of people who simply do not deploy. There are people who manage to skate or have an issue, but the intent is that All Soldiers and All Marines are first and foremost infantry. If we create a class of servicemembers who do not deploy, they also will then be at a serious disadvantage when it comes to promotion, as it should be. And the Kevlar with a Turbin is not that easy to solve. When you have incoming, believe me you want that bugger on nice and tight. Not saying that issues cannot be worked out, but these are basic operational considerations. Not to mention sanitation issues when there are no bathing or shower facilities available for weeks and weeks. Special Ops guys frequently do operate in a much looser discipline arena but that is also part of their mission. I understand, BD. All legit concerns. And we can use these concerns to disallow his service, or we can let him serve, with him knowing the concerns, and at his risk. If a toxic gas is used, he may fall victim, along with a few others who didn't get mask on in time. But, right now, how much gas has been used in Iraq? Regardless of all the reasons to NOT let him serve, his example to the Arabic world would far outweigh those reasons, IMO.
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 14, 2009 20:54:07 GMT -5
Tony, Just why would the Arabic World care if we had a Sikh in the US Army? Just what would it show them unless we paraded him or her around on CNN or FOX or whatever?
Fortunately we haven't had to fight in any significant combat since WWI with gas or nerve agent a major factor. But we don't know that and one reason why we have been so fortunate is that we have counter measures. If you take away the counter measure and the personal protective gear then you are taking away that defense mechanism.
I have served with Sikhs. I do not know the specifics of why the rules have been changed now. But I do not agree at all that we need to have some token representatives of ethnic or religious groups serving in the Theater of Operations simply to impress other people....because I don't think it will.
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poejoe8
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Post by poejoe8 on Jun 14, 2009 20:57:15 GMT -5
I don't think the Arabic world would see our military or country any differently by having an example. He wouldn't be the first Arab to serve in the US military.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 21:01:48 GMT -5
The biggest problem I see is that it is a separate set of rules and guidelines for select people. this is not conducive to building a solid unit foundation and good order and discipline which is the foundation of the military. There is a reason handicapped people aren't allowed to serve int he military.
The navy allowed beards up until the end of 1984 .... It was found that British sailors could not get good air seals on their oxygen mask while fighting fires with a beard, (Falklands) also could not get good seals on their emergency air mask to get them out of confined spaces to open air and we incorporated those lessons learned.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 21:03:01 GMT -5
Tony, You don't want to have an Army that has a category of people who simply do not deploy. There are people who manage to skate or have an issue, but the intent is that All Soldiers and All Marines are first and foremost infantry. If we create a class of servicemembers who do not deploy, they also will then be at a serious disadvantage when it comes to promotion, as it should be. And the Kevlar with a Turbin is not that easy to solve. When you have incoming, believe me you want that bugger on nice and tight. Not saying that issues cannot be worked out, but these are basic operational considerations. Not to mention sanitation issues when there are no bathing or shower facilities available for weeks and weeks. Special Ops guys frequently do operate in a much looser discipline arena but that is also part of their mission. I understand, BD. All legit concerns. And we can use these concerns to disallow his service, or we can let him serve, with him knowing the concerns, and at his risk. If a toxic gas is used, he may fall victim, along with a few others who didn't get mask on in time. But, right now, how much gas has been used in Iraq? Regardless of all the reasons to NOT let him serve, his example to the Arabic world would far outweigh those reasons, IMO. We need to quit kissing the Arabic Worlds ass ...jes sayin'
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 21:08:37 GMT -5
As I have said, I understand your concerns, and respect your opinion. Nevertheless, we have had ongoing problems with the Arabic world, and these problems continue to exist, as we continue the same old status quo in our efforts to remedy them. What is wrong with trying something new? Man has been trying new ways, and means, in all aspects of life, in order to improve how we live. This is no different. You can always improve on the status quo, if you open your mind to new ideas.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 21:08:59 GMT -5
From first hand experience serving in the Middle East...Arabs DO NOT hate America no where near the way it gets portrayed by the media in the United States. There are other Arabs that they hate much more than they do us....
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 21:38:46 GMT -5
From first hand experience serving in the Middle East...Arabs DO NOT hate America no where near the way it gets portrayed by the media in the United States. There are other Arabs that they hate much more than they do us.... I won't argue with that. But, if allowing this man, and others like him, to serve, will help change attitudes of those who do distrust us, then why not give it a try and have "another tool in the box" to fix the problem.
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Post by fiasco007 on Jun 14, 2009 21:59:14 GMT -5
You cant let one guy grow a beard and not another. Simple as that. Not only is it a safety issue. Its also a Professional image issue. I dont know about you guys. But I know some people who try to grow a beard and they look like the biggest douche you've ever seen.
If they want to join, they should follow all the same rules as everyone else.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 14, 2009 22:05:48 GMT -5
Yeah, yeah, I know. And people once said we couldn't fly, and we can't get to the moon, and on and on and on. But people opened their minds and tried new ideas, and what do you know? WE CAN!!!
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Post by fiasco007 on Jun 14, 2009 22:26:27 GMT -5
The purpose of it all is top make everyone the same. Fit the mold. The Army and Marines dont want individuals, and people who will question everything you do. You have to all be on the same page, move in together as one and be a team. You cant have everyone doing whatever they want to.
Air flight does not even compare. Theres a difference between trying to find a way to do things and discover something new, and then just changing the rules
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 14, 2009 22:50:54 GMT -5
Yeah, yeah, I know. And people once said we couldn't fly, and we can't get to the moon, and on and on and on. But people opened their minds and tried new ideas, and what do you know? WE CAN!!! I have served with Muslims...no one says they can't serve....Even arabic ones. They just have to conform to the military rules and guidelines. Just like Native Americans in the Military can't grow their hair long and or go home and smoke peyote with the medicine man, even if it is Grandpa.
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Post by wvuchihuahua on Jun 15, 2009 0:27:53 GMT -5
It wont happen ... The military wont let anyone be independant from the rest. If someone is allowed to wear a turban .. then Someone can claim they can wear a cowboy hat while in uniform because they believe in the cow gods. Bad analogy I know but still .. wont happen.
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Post by fiasco007 on Jun 15, 2009 2:58:37 GMT -5
Yeah, yeah, I know. And people once said we couldn't fly, and we can't get to the moon, and on and on and on. But people opened their minds and tried new ideas, and what do you know? WE CAN!!! I have served with Muslims...no one says they can't serve....Even arabic ones. They just have to conform to the military rules and guidelines. Just like Native Americans in the Military can't grow their hair long and or go home and smoke peyote with the medicine man, even if it is Grandpa. PJ, I actually heard of a Native American active duty AF guy. He smoked the ole peyote, But it was during a religious ceremony they had, and he had to be on 30 days leave.
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Post by hetuck1 on Jun 15, 2009 7:52:46 GMT -5
My problem, in addition to the ones BD mentioned, is that this is an all volunteer service. Anyone who signs up knows the Military standards beforehand. BINGO! Poe Joe said it best. If you don't like the rules, don't join. It's as simple as that. I am sick and tired of the United States bending and changing it's culture to sui tthe needs of outsiders who deem it unfair or inappropriate. However, I don't think a compromise is out of the question. Give the military what it wants when you're on duty or in uniform and wear your religious artifacts in the mean time. I served with people who had similar situations. One in particular needed to wear a certain necklace which had to lay over the clothing so as to be visible to others. She was allowed to wear the necklace but while on duty in had to be concealed under her t-shirt. Rules are rules. Get used to it or don't join the military. A side thought on this.........the guy COULD be used by military organizations......OSI, NCIS.....you get the idea. He'd be great for undercover work. He'd blend in better than one of us! LOL I guess it depends where his loyalties truly lay. I am very VERY weary of any foreigner who serves in the US military.
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 9:03:10 GMT -5
The point of the military, the basic point is standardization. You want each guy to go through the same ordeals to promote camaraderie. Like basic trainees getting their heads buzzed together, for instance. Anything that one doesn't have to do that everyone else has to do simply segregates them unnecessarily.
These guys would be double outcasts from the start.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 9:45:00 GMT -5
I guess it depends where his loyalties truly lay. I am very VERY weary of any foreigner who serves in the US military. This guy isn't a foreigner... Being from a different ethnic/culture/religious background than the white guys doesn't make you a foreigner. Americans are Americans. Jes sayin...
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 10:00:51 GMT -5
Exactly Klink. Americans are Americans and all Americans that join the US Military have to conform to certain standards.
I don't have an issue with someone with a different ethnic background in any of our uniforms. If the guy is an American serving, glad to have you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 10:04:47 GMT -5
Exactly Klink. Americans are Americans and all Americans that join the US Military have to conform to certain standards. I don't have an issue with someone with a different ethnic background in any of our uniforms. If the guy is an American serving, glad to have you. Have yet to form my opinion on this issue. I can see it from both sides. I just really hate it when someone calls an American citizen a foreigner because that person doesn't have a European background.
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