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Post by redpacaderm on Jun 15, 2009 10:25:48 GMT -5
My problem, in addition to the ones BD mentioned, is that this is an all volunteer service. Anyone who signs up knows the Military standards beforehand. BINGO! Poe Joe said it best. If you don't like the rules, don't join. It's as simple as that. I am sick and tired of the United States bending and changing it's culture to sui tthe needs of outsiders who deem it unfair or inappropriate. However, I don't think a compromise is out of the question. Give the military what it wants when you're on duty or in uniform and wear your religious artifacts in the mean time. I served with people who had similar situations. One in particular needed to wear a certain necklace which had to lay over the clothing so as to be visible to others. She was allowed to wear the necklace but while on duty in had to be concealed under her t-shirt. Rules are rules. Get used to it or don't join the military. A side thought on this.........the guy COULD be used by military organizations......OSI, NCIS.....you get the idea. He'd be great for undercover work. He'd blend in better than one of us! LOL I guess it depends where his loyalties truly lay. I am very VERY weary of any foreigner who serves in the US military. Well, I'm a foreigner, spent 21 yrs in the service, wounded in Vietnam. So I can't be trusted? Damn we better purge the military.
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 15, 2009 10:46:39 GMT -5
I'm like you redpd - a German (naturalized) who spent over 35 in uniform.
Tony - believe it or not the military lets you think "outside the box", even encourages it. But in the military we are all thinking inside the same box. It's the only way it will work.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 12:35:50 GMT -5
Well, I see this conversation has rolled over into today. You know, not to long ago, women in the military were, for the most part, in nursing, or in support positions. Today, they are in all areas of the military, including the infantry, because concessions were made to accomodate then, despite the attitudes of most servicemen, who said it would never work. Don't sit back and say it CAN"T WORK, because it COULD WORK, if it was implemented. However, I really don't think they will do it, but, if they did, I would support the effort of trying something new. And as a good soldier, you better damn support it , also, if ordered to do so.
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 15, 2009 12:59:53 GMT -5
Tony - could you tell me the "concessions" that were made to accomodate females I was on active duty and interviewed the first female aircraft mechanic in the military and I'm very familiar with the history of women in the military. Sure would like to hear about those concessions you talk about as I believe I missed them.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 13:55:00 GMT -5
Haven't read the whole thread, but I would think the necessity for special ops, particularly in the current environment, would invite flexibility in these kinds of cases. Hard for your guys to blend in when they're freshly shaved and close-cut.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 13:56:32 GMT -5
Haven't read the whole thread, but I would think the necessity for special ops, particularly in the current environment, would invite flexibility in these kinds of cases. Hard for your guys to blend in when they're freshly shaved and close-cut. Agreed...
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 13:58:56 GMT -5
And what some of you aren't getting is this: to get in all had to be clean shaven. Now, when you do special ops that's different, but they all started the same way. Special ops were not exceptions.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 14:01:26 GMT -5
And what some of you aren't getting is this: to get in all had to be clean shaven. Now, when you do special ops that's different, but they all started the same way. Special ops were not exceptions. Yes, but Sikh's don't cut their hair EVER. That's not something you can just grow back after basic.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 14:15:10 GMT -5
Forget the shave. Let him do his Basic training away from all the guys who would have hurt feelings, then put him wherever he can do the most good, and call him Spec Ops. That way the rest of the boys won't know any better. It CAN work!!
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 14:29:26 GMT -5
Sad, yes I know. My point is you gotta do it. If it's against your beliefs, fine. Best of luck to you as an American citizen and I wish you zero harm in life. But no, sir, you aren't allowed to be an exception.
Tony, you're not going to listen to anything but your own drumbeat. Why listen to guys that have been in the military who know that it won't work? You can't let 2 people be an exception to the entire military. What sense would that make? This has nothing at all to do with hurt feelings and everything to do with common sense.
You know we don't let people in with asthma too, right? Maybe we should start a special group for them too. Wait, we don't let handicapped people in either. Better have a group for them too. We also have age restrictions...may as well let them in too.
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Post by raleighrebel on Jun 15, 2009 14:36:06 GMT -5
i have to defer to the military folks here
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Post by tophb21 on Jun 15, 2009 14:39:56 GMT -5
i have to defer to the military folks here I agree.
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 14:42:50 GMT -5
Let him do his Basic training away from all the guys who would have hurt feelings, then put him wherever he can do the most good, and call him Spec Ops. That way the rest of the boys won't know any better.
No joke, this paragraph alone violates so many things that makes the military the military.
1. Making people the exception when there isn't a reason to. 2. Segregating these guys when there is no need to. 3. Making them the exception puts extra pressure on an already high pressure job (military training instructors). 4. These guys not might not be cut out for spec ops. Then what? Because not every Tom, Dick, and Achmed is cut out for special ops. 5. Training them away from everyone else from the start creates a stigma within them. 6. Training them from everyone else from the start creates a stigma within others about them. 7. Keeping them away from everyone else disrupts espirit de corps.
That's just off the top of my head.
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 15, 2009 14:48:16 GMT -5
Forget the shave. Let him do his Basic training away from all the guys who would have hurt feelings, then put him wherever he can do the most good, and call him Spec Ops. That way the rest of the boys won't know any better. It CAN work!! He has a place in the CIA - not the military. Tony I admire his desire as an American to serve - but not in the military. And the "guys wouldn't have hurt feelings" - he just would never be one of them. But he would be great for the CIA. Different rules and a totally different mission.
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KU62
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Post by KU62 on Jun 15, 2009 14:48:44 GMT -5
Indeed, that is true. Time changes everything, and in these troubled times with the Arabic world, I see nothing wrong with allowing this man, and others like him, to serve our country. The best way for him to serve is with his beard and turban intact, thus proving to the Arabic world that, indeed, we are not the tyrrants that your extremists portray us as. What better way is there to reach out to these people, and show that we can all live in peace, together? Okay. Now, bring on the criticism!! In the name of waheguru (or of Allah), Tony, don't lump Sikh's in with the 'Arabic world' unless you really want to fight them both!
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Post by Geaux Tigers on Jun 15, 2009 14:48:45 GMT -5
Ray and the others have been there and done that.....Their opinions (very educated at that) have more bite than those who can only speculate.
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Post by bcsbbad on Jun 15, 2009 14:50:29 GMT -5
I agree with Geaux Tigers.
After typing that I'm going to drink a lot more now ;d ;d ;d ;d
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Post by raleighrebel on Jun 15, 2009 14:54:49 GMT -5
Ray and the others have been there and done that.....Their opinions (very educated at that) have more bite than those who can only speculate. yup
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Post by KU62 on Jun 15, 2009 14:57:07 GMT -5
Honest question. If this is allowed, how much easier would it be for someone (suicide bomber?) to infiltrate our fighting units, dressed as one of us? Negligible consideration -- an infiltrator would have no problem conforming to some silly dress code. The Schutzstaffel is probably the best example of total adherence to such a standard of appearance, and they had their share of pretenders.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 15:03:10 GMT -5
You guys don't have to be so defensive. If you read the thread, you will see where I said, more than once, I understand your concerns. This is no different than letting women serve in combat duty. Every one of you probably said, "It won't work!" But, there are women walking the streets in Iraq. I guess they made it work. Why? And why not, now? It is a fact of life that, in the military, you follow orders. If your officers tell you to make it work, you will do so, period. That is what they told all the naysayer servicemen, who didn't want women in combat duty, and that is what they will do if they decide to make concessions for this guy, and others like him. And, like it or not, just like any other order, you will obey as commanded. That is how IT WORKS.
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KU62
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Post by KU62 on Jun 15, 2009 15:11:46 GMT -5
All understandable concerns, BD. Perhaps, the Sikh soldier would take those concerns to mind, and shave on his own. I see no problem with the helmet over the turban. Then again, we would not, necessarily, have to send them to the front lines. We could use them in the rear, in an ambassador type fashion, working with the native peoples. There are alternatives to everything, if one opens their mind. Keeping all of them away from action makes no better sense than doing the same for Orientals, Blacks, Pawnees, Latinos, Navajos, Scandinavians, etc. Most typical Sikhs adapt much easier and better to the warrior role than an ambassadorial one. Like any large group, there is vast diversity that would dictate against the advisability of limiting them to any particular function.
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KU62
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Post by KU62 on Jun 15, 2009 15:25:14 GMT -5
My problem, in addition to the ones BD mentioned, is that this is an all volunteer service. Anyone who signs up knows the Military standards beforehand. BINGO! Poe Joe said it best. If you don't like the rules, don't join. It's as simple as that. I am sick and tired of the United States bending and changing it's culture to sui tthe needs of outsiders who deem it unfair or inappropriate. However, I don't think a compromise is out of the question. Give the military what it wants when you're on duty or in uniform and wear your religious artifacts in the mean time. I served with people who had similar situations. One in particular needed to wear a certain necklace which had to lay over the clothing so as to be visible to others. She was allowed to wear the necklace but while on duty in had to be concealed under her t-shirt. Rules are rules. Get used to it or don't join the military. A side thought on this.........the guy COULD be used by military organizations......OSI, NCIS.....you get the idea. He'd be great for undercover work. He'd blend in better than one of us! LOL I guess it depends where his loyalties truly lay. I am very VERY weary of any foreigner who serves in the US military. Why would someone else serving tire you out, hetuck? I think you'd just want to be careful -- same as you would around Ivy Leaguers and city folks, for instance.
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KU62
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Post by KU62 on Jun 15, 2009 15:43:27 GMT -5
Exactly Klink. Americans are Americans and all Americans that join the US Military have to conform to certain standards. I don't have an issue with someone with a different ethnic background in any of our uniforms. If the guy is an American serving, glad to have you. Have yet to form my opinion on this issue. I can see it from both sides. I just really hate it when someone calls an American citizen a foreigner because that person doesn't have a European background. Even if it's you, Klink, I have to agree. Putting people into labeled categories is simply an artifice we use as an excuse for not knowing them individually. I can't know every person I come in contact with, but until I learn something to make me trust/disrust each one, they are all in the 'stranger' category. And that includes all you micks, dagos, spics, bohunks and nords.
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 15, 2009 15:48:33 GMT -5
IF he wants to serve his country and keep his hair I recommend considering other options DIA, CIA etc....
Not active duty military....
______________
On a separate but along the same lines note...Europe has been breaking their backs for ten years to "accommodate" Muslims, going out of their way to make them feel part of "plan" How is that working out for them? How is that lets give peace a chance bullshit working for them?
Press 2 for Arabic?
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Post by raleighrebel on Jun 15, 2009 15:52:54 GMT -5
oh hell, KU and Klink agreed...better call your families and tell them you love them cause the end of times is a comin!
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Post by RHVGator on Jun 15, 2009 15:55:17 GMT -5
You guys don't have to be so defensive. If you read the thread, you will see where I said, more than once, I understand your concerns. This is no different than letting women serve in combat duty. Every one of you probably said, "It won't work!" But, there are women walking the streets in Iraq. I guess they made it work. Why? And why not, now? It is a fact of life that, in the military, you follow orders. If your officers tell you to make it work, you will do so, period. That is what they told all the naysayer servicemen, who didn't want women in combat duty, and that is what they will do if they decide to make concessions for this guy, and others like him. And, like it or not, just like any other order, you will obey as commanded. That is how IT WORKS. Who would have known that all that has to be said is I understand your concerns, and then you can follow it up by saying just about anything?
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 15:57:21 GMT -5
I would bet that IF this guy was drafted, and would not shave his beard because of his religion, you guys would be all over him. Yet, here he is, wanting to serve, but with respect for his religion, and you guys are still all over him. This is why I think he would be good serving our country, as an example that shows the Muslim world that, indeed, we respect your rights in this world, and we can share this world, without killing each other. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion.
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Post by RHVGator on Jun 15, 2009 16:02:04 GMT -5
I would bet that IF this guy was drafted, and would not shave his beard because of his religion, you guys would be all over him. Yet, here he is, wanting to serve, but with respect for his religion, and you guys are still all over him. This is why I think he would be good serving our country, as an example that shows the Muslim world that, indeed, we respect your rights in this world, and we can share this world, without killing each other. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion. I understand your concerns, but why do you keep bringing up Muslim? I thought the guy was Sikh?
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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 15, 2009 16:03:38 GMT -5
You guys don't have to be so defensive. If you read the thread, you will see where I said, more than once, I understand your concerns. This is no different than letting women serve in combat duty. Every one of you probably said, "It won't work!" But, there are women walking the streets in Iraq. I guess they made it work. Why? And why not, now? It is a fact of life that, in the military, you follow orders. If your officers tell you to make it work, you will do so, period. That is what they told all the naysayer servicemen, who didn't want women in combat duty, and that is what they will do if they decide to make concessions for this guy, and others like him. And, like it or not, just like any other order, you will obey as commanded. That is how IT WORKS. There are people now ...right now in the US Navy with hair longer than mine and I look like one of the disciples....with full beards.....I know a good handful of them. I know guys active duty that work in civilian clothes, never wear a uniform. These same guys work at commands that don't exist on paper...Some are at Seal teams and have long hair and beards, speak fluent foreign languages etc... including Arabic ones. But to get to point "C" they must go through points A and B which involve...getting your head shaved and conforming to military standards. There is a process in place for them to apply to be part of these type organizations, involving background checks, interviews, interviews by multiple psychiatrist ....You apply for these positions and get screened, placed, and train for them. You don;t just show up and say hey my religion wont let me cut my hair so I want to be just like you and do what you do.
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Post by Geaux Tigers on Jun 15, 2009 16:03:40 GMT -5
Rules are Rules....no?
...and, as far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with "this guy" but more so, the very strict and long standing principals and criteria our Military has in place.
....and, stop it with the "woe is me" bullshit about "wanting to serve", hell, I know plenty of guys who "wanted" to serve but couldn't cut through basic training. If he "wants" to serve, then he should have no problems adhering to the guidelines set forth by our Military.
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