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Post by Pirate Joe on Jun 15, 2009 16:05:51 GMT -5
. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion. I agree....totally but in 5,000 years of recorded history better men than you or me have tried to solve like it Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and failed. What makes you think you can solve it?
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 15, 2009 16:09:01 GMT -5
Tony, There is an important element to any successful military organization and it is cohesion. You must have cohesion and you cannot have separate standards for different people in a unit that lives, eats, sleeps, shits, showers and fights together. That will NOT work.
As for not trusting foreigners in our Armed Forces, that is total baloney. Some of the absolute best Soldiers I ever served with had a green card....Korean, German, Arabic, Mexican etc. And in many cases they were better because they were busting their butts to prove themselves.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 16:10:22 GMT -5
Forget the shave. Let him do his Basic training away from all the guys who would have hurt feelings, then put him wherever he can do the most good, and call him Spec Ops. That way the rest of the boys won't know any better. It CAN work!! He has a place in the CIA - not the military. Tony I admire his desire as an American to serve - but not in the military. And the "guys wouldn't have hurt feelings" - he just would never be one of them. But he would be great for the CIA. Different rules and a totally different mission. Excellent point. The CIA should be funded to be doing all the hoof work anyway, not special ops.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 16:12:48 GMT -5
. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion. I agree....totally but in 5,000 years of recorded history better men than you or me have tried to solve like it Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and failed. What makes you think you can solve it? And that's one of those overly simplistic romanticisms that has absolutely no place in political reality. the time to end the killing of young men is when other people's young men aren't marching in the street pronouncing how they're going to kill your young men, old men, women, children, infants,.......... It's a nice pretty thought to think you can just lay down your arms, but the reality is the only thing it will get you in this world is the guy laughing as he slits your throat in front of a video camera.
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 16:13:13 GMT -5
In that PJ, at retired Navy Lt Commander, and BD, a retired Army Colonel (I believe) can agree on this, added with a (pissant) Air Force Major?
That speaks volumes. And we've all said the same thing too. And it's 100% right. Espirit de corps. Cohesion. Following steps 1 and 2 to get to step 3, thus proving you don't want to be the exception as soon as you walk in the door.
Well, at least most of the board gets it.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 16:16:24 GMT -5
I think what some people are taking umbrage to is the utterance of the "it can't be done" line. That's usually the very first thing said before it actually gets done. Women in combat roles is an irrefutable example, as everyone said THAT could never be done at one time.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 16:18:24 GMT -5
Look, I'm not saying that I am right, and you guys are wrong. I'm just saying that I would be open to the idea, for reasons I have stated, so don't read anything else into it. I mean no disrespect for any of our men in service, as I hold them in high esteem. I just think trying new ideas may help, and in this country, it is one's right to express those thoughts, whether others agree, or not.
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 15, 2009 16:21:09 GMT -5
Yes it is.
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Post by wareagleray on Jun 15, 2009 16:21:25 GMT -5
The woman in combat example is an interesting one that I'll probably never share my opinion on here. Maybe in a discussion with PJ when I get to MD.
Tony is correct. We will do what we're told to do. But as has been seen in the not so distant past, it doesn't mean we'll like it, and it doesn't mean that it's even close to being right.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 16:22:26 GMT -5
. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion. I agree....totally but in 5,000 years of recorded history better men than you or me have tried to solve like it Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and failed. What makes you think you can solve it? Where have I stated that I could? But, is the thought of a peaceful world a bad thing?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 16:23:06 GMT -5
oh hell, KU and Klink agreed...better call your families and tell them you love them cause the end of times is a comin! I've already started hoarding MREs, bottled water, and ammo. I'm sure the zombies will be coming soon...
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 15, 2009 16:25:11 GMT -5
The new MREs are not bad Klink. I should horde some myself. Those early ones.....well, we didn't call them Meals Rejected by Ethiopians for nothing. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 16:27:26 GMT -5
The new MREs are not bad Klink. I should horde some myself. Those early ones.....well, we didn't call them Meals Rejected by Ethiopians for nothing. ;D I actually grabbed a supply of some when I was still in school and single. Cheap, halfway decent meals that kept me nourished, and a good change of pace from the ramen noodles...
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Post by bigdawgs on Jun 15, 2009 16:29:20 GMT -5
And plenty of calories.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 16:30:57 GMT -5
And plenty of calories. I was still working out heavily, so that didn't bother me. I'd get a shit-ton of sushi once every two weeks or so to boost my protein intake...
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 16:32:22 GMT -5
I agree....totally but in 5,000 years of recorded history better men than you or me have tried to solve like it Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and failed. What makes you think you can solve it? Where have I stated that I could? But, is the thought of a peaceful world a bad thing? No, not at all, but it's so far from even the most remote of possibilities that it's beyond foolish to act upon it and make policy. If the entire world and all it's cultures were at the same place in cultural evolution as the U.S. and "Western" governments like Europe, Australia, Japan, etc., then it might be possible. But not when the planet's peoples and their cultural beliefs and traditions span perspectives that range from the stone age to interplanetary space travel.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 15, 2009 16:33:45 GMT -5
You notice that too, rvg? The only thing ttg understands is that we have opinions different from his own pansy, liberal, WeltVerstÄndnis. Until we agree, it is his bounden duty to keep harranging at our ignorance, especially we who have more experience, more education, more understanding than he has managed. KU62, you have no idea who I am, or, about my education. But, I will tell you this. "The most educated minds are the open ones." Not nearly the case enough in my experience to even make that kind of statement. I'm a member of Mensa, so I've been around a few educated minds before. Educated minds are just as susceptible of being sucked into group mentality as the lesser educated ones. In my experience, even more so.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 16:35:28 GMT -5
Where have I stated that I could? But, is the thought of a peaceful world a bad thing? No, not at all, but it's so far from even the most remote of possibilities that it's beyond foolish to act upon it and make policy. If the entire world and all it's cultures were at the same place in cultural evolution as the U.S. and "Western" governments like Europe, Australia, Japan, etc., then it might be possible. But not when the planet's peoples and their cultural beliefs and traditions span perspectives that range from the stone age to interplanetary space travel. Yeah, well John Lennon says "Imagine", and he's an icon. I say "Imagine" and I'm ridiculed. WTF?
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Post by Geaux Tigers on Jun 15, 2009 16:36:42 GMT -5
No, not at all, but it's so far from even the most remote of possibilities that it's beyond foolish to act upon it and make policy. If the entire world and all it's cultures were at the same place in cultural evolution as the U.S. and "Western" governments like Europe, Australia, Japan, etc., then it might be possible. But not when the planet's peoples and their cultural beliefs and traditions span perspectives that range from the stone age to interplanetary space travel. Yeah, well John Lennon says "Imagine", and he's an icon. I say "Imagine" and I'm ridiculed. WTF? John got shot, you're still breathing....so, you got that going for ya.....
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 15, 2009 16:40:22 GMT -5
KU62, you have no idea who I am, or, about my education. But, I will tell you this. "The most educated minds are the open ones." Not nearly the case enough in my experience to even make that kind of statement. I'm a member of Mensa, so I've been around a few educated minds before. Educated minds are just as susceptible of being sucked into group mentality as the lesser educated ones. In my experience, even more so. The only group mentality you will ever, and I mean EVER, see me sucked into is the Gator Nation!!! Believe it!!
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UF04
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Post by UF04 on Jun 15, 2009 17:16:25 GMT -5
. Call me a peacenik, if you want. It is time to end the killing of young men, all over the world, in the name of religion. I agree....totally but in 5,000 years of recorded history better men than you or me have tried to solve like it Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and failed. What makes you think you can solve it? "You must become the change you wish to see in the word." -Ghandi
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 16, 2009 9:30:03 GMT -5
Tony, You don't want to have an Army that has a category of people who simply do not deploy. There are people who manage to skate or have an issue, but the intent is that All Soldiers and All Marines are first and foremost infantry. If we create a class of servicemembers who do not deploy, they also will then be at a serious disadvantage when it comes to promotion, as it should be. And the Kevlar with a Turbin is not that easy to solve. When you have incoming, believe me you want that bugger on nice and tight. Not saying that issues cannot be worked out, but these are basic operational considerations. Not to mention sanitation issues when there are no bathing or shower facilities available for weeks and weeks. Special Ops guys frequently do operate in a much looser discipline arena but that is also part of their mission. I understand, BD. All legit concerns. And we can use these concerns to disallow his service, or we can let him serve, with him knowing the concerns, and at his risk. If a toxic gas is used, he may fall victim, along with a few others who didn't get mask on in time. But, right now, how much gas has been used in Iraq? Regardless of all the reasons to NOT let him serve, his example to the Arabic world would far outweigh those reasons, IMO. Why would the Arabic world care? These guys aren't Arabs, and they have nothing to do with Islam. How would that be a message to Arabs?
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 16, 2009 9:32:11 GMT -5
Indeed, that is true. Time changes everything, and in these troubled times with the Arabic world, I see nothing wrong with allowing this man, and others like him, to serve our country. The best way for him to serve is with his beard and turban intact, thus proving to the Arabic world that, indeed, we are not the tyrrants that your extremists portray us as. What better way is there to reach out to these people, and show that we can all live in peace, together? Okay. Now, bring on the criticism!! Again, what's this got to do with the Arab world?? These guys aren't Arab, aren't Islamic and aren't from the Middle East.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 16, 2009 9:33:48 GMT -5
I don't think the Arabic world would see our military or country any differently by having an example. He wouldn't be the first Arab to serve in the US military. Again, not an ethnic Arab, Sikhs are from India.
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Post by Life's too short. on Jun 16, 2009 9:39:34 GMT -5
I guess it depends where his loyalties truly lay. I am very VERY weary of any foreigner who serves in the US military. This guy isn't a foreigner... Being from a different ethnic/culture/religious background than the white guys doesn't make you a foreigner. Americans are Americans. Jes sayin... I don't see anything here that says whether he's a foreigner or not. His father was in the Indian air force, so was in India at least old enough to have kids. The person in question might be a naturalized citizen, as opposed to a native born citizen. Not taking a side on this, just wanted to clarify. I had a friend at USC that was a Sikh, he clarified a lot of stuff for me on the religion. He started at USC at 17 years old, was a really nice guy at the start, but was so angry at the U.S. and Americans by the end that I could EASILY see him joining a group to blow up buses and subway cars. He was just constantly bothered by the ignorant things American people threw at him. "Arab" and "Muslim" were two of the biggest, along with all the associated stereotypes.
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Post by hetuck1 on Jun 16, 2009 10:32:39 GMT -5
Klink, it depends on how his citizenship was obtained and what his intentions are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't some of the 9/11 highjackers American citizens too? Citizen or not I don't trust the guy. If I met him perhaps I'd feel different but my first reaction, after what our country has been through, is not to trust him.
And either way, when somebody joins our military they conform to OUR standards. Not their own.
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 16, 2009 14:25:04 GMT -5
I thought the Sikhs were a faction of Islam.
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Post by goirish on Jun 16, 2009 14:28:35 GMT -5
They are christians from India...
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Post by tonythegator on Jun 16, 2009 14:31:28 GMT -5
Well, in that case, what the hell have we been arguing about? ;D
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Post by goirish on Jun 16, 2009 14:32:13 GMT -5
haha...I was wondering that myself...
"Due to the turbans Sikhs wear and the relative scarcity of Sikhs, there have been incidents of mistaking Sikhs in Western countries for Middle Eastern men and/or Muslims. This has negatively affected Sikhs living in the west especially with respect to the 9/11 terrorist attack and recent Iraq War conflict.[citation needed]
After the September 11, 2001 attacks, some people associated Sikhs with terrorists or members of the Taliban. A few days after the attack Balbir Singh Sodhi, a Sikh man, was gunned down by a person who thought that the victim had ties to Al-Qaeda. CNN suggests that there has been an increase in hate-crimes against Sikh men in the United States and the UK.[86][87]
Sikhism as a faith has never actively sought converts, thus the Sikhs have remained a relatively homogeneous racial group. However, mainly due to the activities of Harbhajan Singh Yogi via his Kundalini Yoga focused 3HO (Happy, Healthy, Holy) Organization, Sikhism has witnessed a moderate growth in non-Indian adherents.[88] In 1998 it was estimated that these 3HO Sikhs, known colloquially as ‘gora’ (ਗੋਰਾ) or ‘white’ Sikhs, totaled 7,800[89] and were mainly centered around Española, New Mexico and Los Angeles, California."
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