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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 2:29:30 GMT -5
Not sure I get where all this whining about Daniels winning the Heisman comes from. LSU won 9 games and were not 6-6. Caleb Williams lost 4 last year. Lamar Jackson did too. If we are only go by team record, I didn't see same level of concern when a walk on won consecutive national championships. By the way, USC lost 3 games last year, but one of them was the bowl, after the voting. At the time of the vote they were a 2 loss team (both to Utah).
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Post by NCBulldawg on Dec 12, 2023 11:54:18 GMT -5
David does have a point, to whatever degree, that stats were used one way, or another when TuTu QB's were throwing for monstrous numbers. But, and I am not crystal clear on this, that argument was that the Conference as a whole was a "little weak" in the Defense department of teams faced, not that their own Defense stunk so badly that they had to overcome.
So, let's take a look at the strength of Defenses faced against the Pass...
Penix faced the following Passing Ranked Defenses...
#132- Stanford #130- California #129- Tulsa #121- Arizona State #117- USC #113- Boise State #89- Washington State #84- Michigan State #82- Oregon State #73- Arizona #64- Utah #63- Oregon
Daniels faced...
#131- Georgia State #69- Florida #62- Missouri #60- Mississippi #33- Mississippi State #30- Arkansas #29- Auburn #23- Alabama #21- Texas A&M #20- Army #8- Florida State _________________ Grambling- FCS #20 (out of 50 teams)
As one can see, comparing strictly the rankings of teams played and their ability against the Pass, one QB faced a much more difficult schedule of teams against the Pass. One would have to dig a lot deeper to truly use these stats to compare.
On its surface, Penix did not face one team with a Passing Defense ranked higher than 63rd. Daniels faced 9 teams who's passing defense ranked higher than who Penix faced.
I guess all I am saying here is the quality of Passing Defenses sure seems to favor Penix earning his numbers, and is stacked more against Daniels doing what he did to get his numbers.
So, yeah...I guess it is one's perspective on Defense, how they want to view it, when making arguments. Whether it is the quality of the Defenses played against, or the quality of one's own Defense, and if they had to throw it more. From these stats showing the rankings of Pass Defenses, looks like one QB had an "easier path" to attain their passing numbers than the other.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 12:04:49 GMT -5
David does have a point, to whatever degree, that stats were used one way, or another when TuTu QB's were throwing for monstrous numbers. But, and I am not crystal clear on this, that argument was that the Conference as a whole was a "little weak" in the Defense department of teams faced, not that their own Defense stunk so badly that they had to overcome. So, let's take a look at the strength of Defenses faced against the Pass... Penix faced the following Passing Ranked Defenses... #132- Stanford #130- California #129- Tulsa #121- Arizona State #117- USC #113- Boise State #89- Washington State #84- Michigan State #82- Oregon State #73- Arizona #64- Utah #63- Oregon Daniels faced... #131- Georgia State #69- Florida #62- Missouri #60- Mississippi #33- Mississippi State #30- Arkansas #29- Auburn #23- Alabama #21- Texas A&M #20- Army #8- Florida State _________________ Grambling- FCS #20 (out of 50 teams) As one can see, comparing strictly the rankings of teams played and their ability against the Pass, one QB faced a much more difficult schedule of teams against the Pass. One would have to dig a lot deeper to truly use these stats to compare. On its surface, Penix did not face one team with a Passing Defense ranked higher than 63rd. Daniels faced 9 teams who's passing defense ranked higher than who Penix faced. I guess all I am saying here is the quality of Passing Defenses sure seems to favor Penix earning his numbers, and is stacked more against Daniels doing what he did to get his numbers. So, yeah...I guess it is one's perspective on Defense, how they want to view it, when making arguments. Whether it is the quality of the Defenses played against, or the quality of one's own Defense, and if they had to throw it more. From these stats showing the rankings of Pass Defenses, looks like one QB had an "easier path" to attain their passing numbers than the other. Sure. That's also a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Or, an unfair one. Or whatever you call it. Are the pass defenses in the P12 really bad, or where the QBs that damn good? 4 of the Top 5 passing offenses in the nation were in the P12. 6 of the Top 12. 7 of the Top 15. And, unlike some QBs, Penix actually won his big games. Look, this is no big deal to me. Any of Daniels, Penix or Nix could have won, and there are reasons to justify all 3. What annoys me is how the narrative changes to support certain teams that are "in" be it for the Heisman, or the CFP. In teams include USC, ND, tOSU, Michigan, Oklahoma, and yes, the SEC. I just want those who decide these things to be consistent.
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Post by NCBulldawg on Dec 12, 2023 12:45:50 GMT -5
notdpb, you did read this sentence, "One would have to dig a lot deeper to truly use these stats to compare.", yes?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 12:57:15 GMT -5
notdpb, you did read this sentence, "One would have to dig a lot deeper to truly use these stats to compare.", yes? Missed it. Sorry.
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Post by ghost on Dec 12, 2023 13:07:11 GMT -5
notdpb, you did read this sentence, "One would have to dig a lot deeper to truly use these stats to compare.", yes? But you have a rubber ruler on defenses too..... i mean, of course the Big12 is going to suffer on pass defnese back then when you have programs focusing on the Air Raid and spread attacks..... your defense automatically went down after you played Texas Tech because they threw for 450 or 500... or 715 like Pat did vs OU.... i mean, yeah TTU lost the bowl to Miss but Harrell still had 5 Tis and 400 yards or something.... point being that stats lie. SEC had way less tams throwing 50 times a game.... hell, in the Big12 you had TTU, Missouri, KU, TAmU, OU, OSU, i mean... the entire conference was pass happy..... With a ton of NfL talent at wR... Not a lot of QB's from the SEC back then... had every other potsition on lock down.... Rb especially out of the seC and big.... I just looked at D PPG.... and was interesting that harrell and daniels both had defense allowing "27.8" per game. but one was 11-1 and the other 9-3.... But in 2008 you had tebow, and bradford, and 10-15 other players lifting it up....... Harrell was leading in the Heisman until the OU loss.... maybe if he played a FCS in week 11 and threw for 8 Tis and 600 yards instead of OU he would have won....
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